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Thread: The Lebanese Forces Manifesto

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    One more thing...when you speak of victories...

    why do you ignore bella and qnat? were they not successfully defended against the syrians??

    speaking of breaking the status quo...what was zahle for? are you aware that zahle war was for that purpose? to break the status quo that had settled in after the period 76-80?? it aimed essentially at dragging israel into the war and it did fail at that goal...yet i did not see you criticize or raise a concern.

    every leader has/had a context in which he can maneuver...a certain space...the only two leaders that managed to do this with a certain degree of success were Bachir and Samir.

    you named two wars using them to accuse geagea of failure...yet you IGNORED that at that time, geagea WAS NOT IN THE LEADERSHIP of the LF. having been a soldier, you should surely be aware that it is the supreme leadership that defines the actions and reactions...did you never take fire with strict orders of not firing back and thsoe orders did they not come from he command of the LF rather than your direct commanding officer?

    leadership is not about how many body bags you fill...nor is it about waging blind battles left and right. a true leader knows when to fight and when to sit put. a true leader has a strategy rather than a tactic...a true leader is worried about the outcome of the war rather than a battle here and a battle there.

    what you are judging geagea on is based on tactics...not on strategy for strategy is a long term thing...and the long term proved his judgment was right.

    claiming that something is not seen to you does not necessarily imply that it is not there...you do not see God yet do you deny his existence and dont you go twisting this to say im comparing anyone to God...I am not.

    from your stances, I am guessing you are not close to the current command of the LF and as such, how would you be in on their internal secrets and preparations

    how do you know what is being done and what is not? how would you know the calculations that are taken into consideration before making each decision

    dont tell me that you can guess or imagine anything...no offense but reading your posts in this thread made me see how biased your judgment would be. and i am not attacking you. just laying out facts so please answer back in the same manner.
    Last edited by othello; 26-08-2009 at 05:35 AM.
    -- JIBHATOUNA SOUMOUD WA RADDOUNA MOUKAWAMA --

    ?? ?




    Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil -Doug Patton

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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    Im still in a good mood...and just to prove to you that I mean dialog, here goes:


    The LF was defending itself against the treacherous attack of Aouns militia.
    Right I don't say the countrary For me it was Aoun that attacked the first in January 1990.

    On the other hand why were the LF shelling on civilians zone particulary in the Metn? It was unecessary. I have several examples and pictures...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    As for the protection, would you deny that the LF kept the syrians at bay from 1986 to 1989
    Yes it is true what about 1990 when LF were with Syrians? Stupid Hate Aoun and Geagea brought them both to go to Assad...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    Do you deny that had it not been for Geagea, the tripartite agreement would have given the Syrians a greater hold of Lebanon
    I don't deny But Ta2ef was a copy of tripartite agreement and Geagea accepted it...


    Tell me, the LF were choir boys in the days of HK?

    in the days of Abi Nader?

    in the days of Frem? even in the days of Bachir?

    perhaps this will refresh your memory: http://www.bachirgemayel.org/index.p...niaket.mp3&m=1

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    fact is, there were ALWAYS bad elements within the LF. period.

    why do you have to act like Geagea took over and turned them into cut throats?
    Don't mix up LF leaders that you mentionned (HK set appart) were limiting their Zo3ran.

    For Geagea massive orders for Shelling Aounists region could only come from the highest levels. Artillery (155mm 130mm Katiusha) cannot fire without Gamma zero providing exact positions. Obviously Geagea was blind with hatered so was Aoun on the otherside.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    before you put anything under my nose, start with ACKNOWLEDGING TRUTHS.
    I ackowledge it what about you?

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    Accept that Geagea brought in reforms to the LF that strengthened it and made of it a formidable fighting machine that even Western countries were admiring.
    What Western Countries were admiring was the Hizballah Guerilla hit and run commando's. The continous harrasment terror behind ennemy lines. That was the right strategy.

    Never Geagea thought about it. Instead we were waiting to counter Syria with our weak artillery while the 5th column of the Mu5abarat was turning christians politicians one after the other in their favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    The fact that Geagea COULD HAVE AVOIDED the jail should tell you much more...
    True by refusieng the americain deal favorable to Syria he could have avoid jail...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post

    The fact that ALL OF THOSE who today claim to \"represent the Bachir spirit\" are doing nothing but backstabing the LF to get back at Geagea should tell you even more.
    Some Bachirists other are LF. I have nothing to do with Abu Nader & Co.


    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    On what basis do you judge his competence?
    Since his release I don't see any big improvements. We are at the complete mercy of others...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    What do you know of his preparations and his leadership skills? so he is not as bloody as most of the previos commanders of the LF he then becomes \"incapable\" in your eyes?
    For God sake where the heck did I write that a good commander is a bloodiest one?
    From 1986 till 1990 he had his chance and we saw nothing coming out of it...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    tell me, in all honesty. WAS THE LF READY for a manifesto in 2005? on what basis would he have built to come out with this manifesto?
    tell me, in all honesty isn't 3 years not to say 23 years enough to give birth to a LF program?

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    you who claims to have served during the war...tell me something: what is the FIRST thisng you would do before setting up camp in the field do you not secure your perimeter? aw you just go about setting up your camp hek the first place you like do you not scout for hours if necessary to find a spot that would be PERFECT for the camp? that would allow you to see an incoming attack and retreat if necessary?
    Kataeb training learned us to plan before executing. LF should make a plan...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    as for the skills in protecting the Christians...let me ask you:

    back in 1984-85, had geagea not stood up against abi nader, would the LF have not melted into the kataeb and subsequently been eliminated thus opening the door to the syrian to come in?
    Nope Abou Nader wasn't that open to Gemayel. Personaly I think he didn't new what to do...
    LF was not only Kata2eb there was A7rar Tanzim and 7ourras. Those last 3 would never accepted being assimilated as Kata2eb.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    back in 1985-86, had geagea not sabotaged the tripartite agreement would we not be in deeper shit today are you aware of the terms of the tripartite agreement concerning syrian presence in Lebanon?
    the Trait de Fraternit, de Coopration et de Coordination of may 1991 was as same as Tripartite agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    the christians my friend did everything to burn ALL the bridges that linked them to the west and thus placed themselves in the corner because of their stupid actions...as a result, we were sold to syria as a thank you gift...
    Maybe but look at Rafi2 7arriri power he link was so close that he was able to let Chirac and Bush create a court only for him...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    lt me remind you my friend, it was the cold war being fought in Lebanon...USA vs USSR...as usual. we (as lebanese in general) were pawns no matter what anyone will tell you...e were given a chance in 82...we failed at it. we were given a chance in 84...we blew it as well...just because we felt we were smarter than everyone else.and we paid dearly.
    You're maybe right at a certain point. But don't forget that the collapse of free Lebanon was in 1990 when Berlin wall was downed. Gorbatchov wasn't selling that huge weapons to Assad.

    There are four levels of parameters that determines if you loose or you win against Syria.

    International one : mainly USA at a smaller extent France.
    Regional one : Israel - KSA - Egypt - Jordan - Irak
    Lebanese one : Relation with other communities sunna Shi3a Druz
    Christian one : Inter maronite relations.

    In 1982 Bashir had them all with him -> he lwon and was elected president
    In 1988 Aoun had them all with him USA was not against him yet. Irak was helping, Heformed a military cabinet with Druz and Shi3a generals. LF relation were excellent at that time and Franjieyh remained neutral.
    In 1990 Aoun had them all against him -> he lost.

    Geagea never found his way in the 4 points.


    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    jabal? my friend we lost jabal because Israel turned against us...we were fighting the PSP, the IDF, the palestinians...and all this with a bunch of guys with AKs and a couple of mortars and one or two machine guns...ma3lesh ye3ne...
    We never fought the IDF. IDF went back to the mountains in order to play the pacekeeping force. Before the battle al LF was equiped with IDF ammo. We didn't managed our way and PSP played guerilla against the army LF you are talking about. All suplies were cut to our troops there. At the end the only contact we were having with the fighting infantery was the canons forbidding pro syrian to approach to close to their position. in 24hours B7amdoun fell as Shells could not help in Urban area's.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    sharek sayda? idem mon ami...meme chose...
    Nope there were no fighting. LF withdraw by sea after an agreement with PSP. The agreement weren't respected and xians slaughtered.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    to blame geagea for all this would at best be short sighted and I am not attacking you.just laying out a fact.
    I am not pa presecutor and share garfield remarks : this was 25years ago. I refered to those events bcz you gave me the impression that Geagea was the best leader ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    and if the LF was such a flop anyways, why do you think Syria is bothering to THIS VERY DAY to constantly attack us?? to constantly try to undermine geagea tell me why?
    Geagea isn't the only one to be attacked. Kata2eb had already two of its figures murdered.
    I am not saying that Geagea is pro syrian. I say that he isn't the best leader. He is the less worse for the time being.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    who do you think created the aoun syndrom review your history: aoun was appointed as commander of the army in 1984 by DIRECT ORDER of khaddam...he replaced Tannous who was openly PRO LF.
    To my knowledge Aoun was appointened bcz he was the eldest to the seat at that time. But this is not the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    the tripartite agreement had the same goal: eliminate the LF by bringng them into the pro syrian club...
    I rather see it a troyan horse game played by Assad without shouting a single bullit. The good Borgian way...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    when aoun took power, what was the first thing he did in 1989? more precisely on 14 february 1989? did he not attack the LF?? for what? do you need me to remind you that syria allowed him to pull LAF soldiers from demarcation lines in Sanine so that he could amass more fighting power against the LF??
    Same as in january 1990 when his army was able to retire and prepare its fight against LF as PSP and syrian army retired 5 km from Dowar Dhr es Shweir Kfarmatta...

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    why did they bring back aoun in 2005? to split up the Christian street like they did in 89...
    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    and you tell me geagea did nothing? my friend, let me tell you something:

    1- I am not claiming that everything is dove tailed inside the LF today.
    2- I am not saying that things could not be better...

    but also, I would like you to acknowledge the fact that had it not been for geagea, there would be NO LF today and hence the spirit of Bachir of which you talk so much would have been dead. the death of the LF would have effectively assasinated BG a second time and this time for good.

    i hope to receive STRAIGHT FORWARD answers to the points i laid above.
    Don't make me say again what I Didn't say I am not writing that GEagea is the worse. I never wrote that and will never write it. I am just saying Geagea is currently the less worse choice. while for you he is the best. This is very wrong. He cannot be the best.

    I think you got my message now...
    Free Butrus Khawand !

  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    One more thing...when you speak of victories...

    why do you ignore bella and qnat? were they not successfully defended against the syrians??.
    You said by your own words DEFENDING. You cannot win a war by defending. Personaly the was wasn't lost on battlefield it was lost on the political one.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    speaking of breaking the status quo...what was zahle for? are you aware that zahle war was for that purpose? to break the status quo that had settled in after the period 76-80?? it aimed essentially at dragging israel into the war and it did fail at that goal...yet i did not see you criticize or raise a concern.
    Nope it succesfully matched as Israel waited one more year for synchronizing its offensive with the presidential election.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    every leader has/had a context in which he can maneuver...a certain space...the only two leaders that managed to do this with a certain degree of success were Bachir and Samir.
    Dunno where you found a succes towards Geagea... (without any offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    you named two wars using them to accuse geagea of failure...yet you IGNORED that at that time, geagea WAS NOT IN THE LEADERSHIP of the LF. having been a soldier, you should surely be aware that it is the supreme leadership that defines the actions and reactions...did you never take fire with strict orders of not firing back and thsoe orders did they not come from he command of the LF rather than your direct commanding officer?
    Geagea was the direct leading officer of the offensive in the Shf. On the Iklim el 5arroub he was at the head of the LF. After the defeat he had to step down in favor of HK.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    leadership is not about how many body bags you fill...nor is it about waging blind battles left and right. a true leader knows when to fight and when to sit put. a true leader has a strategy rather than a tactic...a true leader is worried about the outcome of the war rather than a battle here and a battle there.
    War is the continuation of politics by other means. Assad was or eliminating or turning his fierce opponents in his favor.
    Assad's didn't need battles for that he just passed form the military battlefields to the secret politics ones. Ba3assna kilna. His son is doing as same today. look in 2006 who would have bet 1 lira on Syria. Today they are strong more than ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    what you are judging geagea on is based on tactics...not on strategy for strategy is a long term thing...and the long term proved his judgment was right.
    I am judging a man that doesn't seem to understnad where is the real battlefield. It is on secret service domain.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    claiming that something is not seen to you does not necessarily imply that it is not there...you do not see God yet do you deny his existence and dont you go twisting this to say im comparing anyone to God...I am not.

    from your stances, I am guessing you are not close to the current command of the LF and as such, how would you be in on their internal secrets and preparations
    I have my info and reasons. Cannot share them now.

    Quote Originally Posted by othello View Post
    how do you know what is being done and what is not? how would you know the calculations that are taken into consideration before making each decision
    PSP which are much stronger that LF were in great difficulties during May 7th offensives. We are far from that degree of preparation ... consider my point of view and tell me if I am wrong
    Free Butrus Khawand !

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Right I don't say the countrary For me it was Aoun that attacked the first in January 1990.

    On the other hand why were the LF shelling on civilians zone particulary in the Metn? It was unecessary. I have several examples and pictures...
    im seriously fighting the ironic sentiment that is growing steadily in me...

    where was the army located again?

    in case you did not know, its Lebanon...10452 sq. km. where would each party hide come on man...as a soldier you would know wouldnt you?


    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Yes it is true what about 1990 when LF were with Syrians? Stupid Hate Aoun and Geagea brought them both to go to Assad...
    correction: Aoun went to Assad...in fact aoun came from assad and went right back.

    where did geagea go to assad?

    ba3den assuming he did, why was he jailed? do you ever think how can such conflicting statements come together

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    I don't deny But Ta2ef was a copy of tripartite agreement and Geagea accepted it...
    1- tripartite was a pure syrian conception. Taef was brokered by the USA and the rest of the world.

    2- tripartite had no overseers...taef again was brokered by the rest of the world...

    3- when tripartite was signed, we, THE LF ye3ne as well as the rest of the eastern sections of Beirut WERE POWERFUL. WE WERE UNITED. UNDEFEATABLE. why should we sign such an agreement?

    in 1990, we were WEAK. DIVIDED. militarily we had wasted our resources fighting each other. the entire structure we had built over the years and that had allowed us to fight the tripartite was in shambles.

    4- tripartite talked about INCREASING the syrian presence in Lebanon...TAEF spoke of WITHDRAWAL...

    do all of these above not count as DIFFERENCES between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    Tell me, the LF were choir boys in the days of HK?

    in the days of Abi Nader?

    in the days of Frem? even in the days of Bachir?

    perhaps this will refresh your memory: http://www.bachirgemayel.org/index.p...niaket.mp3&m=1

    Don't mix up LF leaders that you mentionned (HK set appart) were limiting their Zo3ran.
    OK. since you seem to be so informed.

    would you mind telling me what the PM were doing?
    would you please mind telling me what was beyt anoubine used for? in case you dont know where that is, its the current army base thats on the autostrade, when you take left to go into tabarja.

    my friend I can tell you that Hakim was indeed doing all his might to CONTROL the men...its this aounist propaganda that caused our divisions in 89 and its trying to do the same.

    I read you many times criticizing aoun bass why do you insist on REPEATING his lies

    tell me WHO reformed the MP after it had been canibalized by jihez el amen? why reform it if it was not to be used? if you will claim to use it against the people, they why bother with new structures..ma howi ma byefham bil strategie w he is not organized and does not know how to get organized?? come on man!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    For Geagea massive orders for Shelling Aounists region could only come from the highest levels. Artillery (155mm 130mm Katiusha) cannot fire without Gamma zero providing exact positions. Obviously Geagea was blind with hatered so was Aoun on the otherside.
    geagea was defending himself against a backstab. he was not shelling the regions, he was shelling the military camps and artillery positions of aouns militia.

    so now you will tell me THROUGHOUT the war, no one suffered civilian casualities except at the hands of the LF walaw man?

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    I ackowledge it what about you?
    well its christal clear what you are acknowledging.... so far you have yet to give me one fact that is valid. ONE. what are you acknowledging? you are reciting the same lesson we have heard since TELE LIBAN propaganda. and time did prove how big the aounist media machine is and how good they are at lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post



    What Western Countries were admiring was the Hizballah Guerilla hit and run commando's. The continous harrasment terror behind ennemy lines. That was the right strategy.

    Never Geagea thought about it. Instead we were waiting to counter Syria with our weak artillery while the 5th column of the Mu5abarat was turning christians politicians one after the other in their favor.
    do you re read what you wrote man?? i tell you that the west was admiring geagea'a accomplishment in reforming the LF you tell me they were admiring hezbulla style tactics? WHO PLACED THOSE TACTICS ?

    anyways i will write it off on the account of you not properly explaining your idea...

    regarding guerilla tactics....again you are WRONG. for your info there were more than one unit in the LF specialized in sabotage and remote special guerilla type operations...

    dakhlak where were you with respect to the strategic command of the LF between 86 and 89? were you taking decisions? were you in the room? how on earth do you expect to be able to talk about a particular strategy when it is obvious you are infamiliar with the entire WAR!!

    wba3den, and do forgive the ironic tone, who on earth gave you the power to read minds? what great power is it that you enjoy care to share? you can read minds? and remotely at that since you were not supposed to be in Lebanon...

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post


    True by refusieng the americain deal favorable to Syria he could have avoid jail...
    ya 3youne...ya albe...wlik whats wrong with you?

    HAD GEAGEA SAID YES TO SYRIA WOULD HE HAVE GONE TO JAIL ANSWER ME THIS??


    we agreed there would be no word twisting...yet here you are...I dont mind but I will keep it straight for my part...so that no one can say I did not try my best to refrain from mocking a fellow forum member.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Some Bachirists other are LF. I have nothing to do with Abu Nader & Co.
    I am not labeling you. I am just telling you where the slogans and theories you are repeating emanate from...who cooked them.

    THERE IS ONLY ONE LF. it was founded by Bachir and it is CURRENTLY under the leadership of DSG. accept it or stop falsely claiming you are an LF...

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Since his release I don't see any big improvements. We are at the complete mercy of others...
    1-WERE YOU LOOKING?
    2-WHERE were you looking?
    3- WHAT WERE you looking for?

    those three determine the veracity of your phrase. sometimes when we sit waiting for a taxi, we miss the plane. in other words, when our attraction is distracted by something, it is easy for us to miss something else.

    and so called magicians use this defect in the human mind to pull their greatest acts...politicians do the same...they will focus your mind on an issue...distracting you from another issue...example: federalism.

    for a wile, all we would hear from "bachirists" was where is federalism? what have you done with federalism...today its where is the manifesto.what have you done with the manifesto...and in the mean time, the country suffers one external war, one mini internal one...political assasinations of M14 politicians increased and the shabeb are demanding federalism...

    reminded me of a guy whose ship was drowning kept screaming about the toilet paper getting wet...

    in the true spirit of Bachir, your duty as an LF is to FIRST support your party against the outside...then WHEN YOU ARE DONE, and its calm, you can go back to afixing problems INSIDE.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    For God sake where the heck did I write that a good commander is a bloodiest one?
    where did you see me accusing you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    From 1986 till 1990 he had his chance and we saw nothing coming out of it...
    again i told you what you see depends on three main factors...trust me on it.

    1- did i not list the accomplishments of the LF? yet you so blatantly ignored them.

    2- 86 - 89 was a relatively calm period so geagea set out to fix the inner house. much like he is doing now by the way...he reopened ghosta, reworked the unit formation of the LF...

    worked on trying to satisfy the basic needs of the population, and i believe i have listed the civilian reforms done.

    let me ask you: had the LF not been reformed. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IT WOULD HAVE WON AGAINST HK WHEN HE TRIED TO COME BACK IN SEPTEMBER 86 THRU SODEKO? HE HAD AMAL, SSNP, PSP AND THE SYRIANS BACKING HIM. yet he failed.

    had the LF not been reorganized at that speed, would it have WON answer?

    you claim to be a soldier yet u surprise me with this civilian like IGNORANCE of most basic military concepts.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    tell me, in all honesty isn't 3 years not to say 23 years enough to give birth to a LF program?
    what honesty do you want? have I been lying to you through all those posts? are you kidding me?

    again: do you posess the power to read minds wlik did you read all you posted? nothing but judgement cast on ASSUMPTIONS based on what you think is happening...come on man.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    Kataeb training learned us to plan before executing. LF should make a plan...
    eno PLEASE TELL ME WHY ON EARTH would LF leadership include YOU in their plans?? what do you base your statement on?? that you did not se it?

    well, kataeb training (hell even kindergarten training should have ) should have thought you that plans in Lebanon HAVE TO BE KEPT SECRET...duh!!! yet you did not seem to learn ... shou be3mellak ana?


    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Nope Abou Nader wasn't that open to Gemayel. Personaly I think he didn't new what to do...
    personally I think you are clueless on this. I am not going to talk out of hearsay like you are doing. I will refer you to books written by members of Kataeb politburo and very close to Amine...Joseph abi nader...his book " tarikh al mawarina fil 7areb. read.

    now facts: who forced fouad onto the leadership of the LF to replace Fadi Frem so your statement about fouad not being taht open to amine is WRONG.

    Why did amine place fouad to replace frem why fouad of all the people? which means there was trust and a mission.

    Fouad, under influence from his UNCLE Amine had started by the financial control of the LF trying to annex it to that of the Kataeb.

    that was what sparked the intifada...March 1985...12th I believe or 14th...

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    LF was not only Kata2eb there was A7rar Tanzim and 7ourras. Those last 3 would never accepted being assimilated as Kata2eb.
    those three accepted to be unified under Bachir who came from Kataeb...why refuse this time?

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    the Trait de Fraternit, de Coopration et de Coordination of may 1991 was as same as Tripartite agreement.
    again. when the LF were in power to STOP it, they stoped it. when they could not stop it by power, they tried politics. too bad a madman had sabotaged their luck and too bad they were too late for the fate of Lebanon had been sealed by assads help in desert storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    Maybe but look at Rafi2 7arriri power he link was so close that he was able to let Chirac and Bush create a court only for him...
    halla2 3an jad shou jeb hay la hay kif sharbakteli yehon bi ba3don

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    You're maybe right at a certain point. But don't forget that the collapse of free Lebanon was in 1990 when Berlin wall was downed. Gorbatchov wasn't selling that huge weapons to Assad.
    and lets not forget that assad had switched by supporting Bush Sr in Desert Storm...aw you dont recall the syrian troups landing in Kuwait?

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    There are four levels of parameters that determines if you loose or you win against Syria.

    International one : mainly USA at a smaller extent France.
    Regional one : Israel - KSA - Egypt - Jordan - Irak
    Lebanese one : Relation with other communities sunna Shi3a Druz
    Christian one : Inter maronite relations.

    In 1982 Bashir had them all with him -> he lwon and was elected president
    In 1988 Aoun had them all with him USA was not against him yet. Irak was helping, Heformed a military cabinet with Druz and Shi3a generals. LF relation were excellent at that time and Franjieyh remained neutral.
    In 1990 Aoun had them all against him -> he lost.

    Geagea never found his way in the 4 points.
    nice analysis. you forgot to add:

    1- Bachir had them with him untill he was elected, then he tried to get out.he was assasinated.

    2- had Bachir gone all the way with the americans and signed with the israelis, he would not have been killed.

    3- the military cabinet lasted a couple of days then ALL the non christian resigned. it was then aoun himself. i would refer you to an interview he did with a french television saying : je suis le premier ministre et sept minsitres"... from that point things started to go bad for aoun...but this is another story...

    if you look carefully you would notice that when both of them had the four points, they were not able to keep them...for many reasons...some psychological some emotional some out of miscalculation...anyways.

    back to your statement: how do you know that geagea does not have them how do you know what geagea has? again where, what and for what were you looking when you did not see?

    anyways i will restate your points and debate them:

    International one : mainly USA at a smaller extent France.
    ----> I dont think there is anything to show they are not both supporting him??

    Regional one : Israel - KSA - Egypt - Jordan - Irak
    ----> Israel trekli yeha 3a janab dakhil ejrayk...ba3den bit2ouloulna 3amele w medre shou. KSA/EGYPT/JORDAN? again I dont see what makes you believe they are not?

    Lebanese one : Relation with other communities sunna Shi3a Druz
    ----> get suna and shiites and druze to have relations between each other frist...joke aside. I do see such relations with all the above communities... who they themselves are split...shou khasso geagea bhal split?

    ba3dkon lalyom bthettou kif met7elaf ma3 FM w PSP!!!

    Christian one : Inter maronite relations.
    ----> hayde asessan mana zabta men oyem jedo la jede...come on...but would you deny that the LF popularity gave M14 the majority of Christian votes?


    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    We never fought the IDF. IDF went back to the mountains in order to play the pacekeeping force. Before the battle al LF was equiped with IDF ammo. We didn't managed our way and PSP played guerilla against the army LF you are talking about. All suplies were cut to our troops there. At the end the only contact we were having with the fighting infantery was the canons forbidding pro syrian to approach to close to their position. in 24hours B7amdoun fell as Shells could not help in Urban area's.
    habibe...IDF was supporting PSP...stop twisting history.

    the IDF was supposed to retreat and be replaced by the LAF...WHO DID NOT SEND THE LAF to the mountain? ask him...

    the LF had taken control of some of the previously Christian areas that had been emptied by the war...they were caught between the cross fire of PSP/IDF on one side and Syria+leftist parties on the other...



    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    Nope there were no fighting. LF withdraw by sea after an agreement with PSP. The agreement weren't respected and xians slaughtered.
    there was no fighting in share2 sayda? where did you get your news from? SOURCES please


    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    I am not pa presecutor and share garfield remarks : this was 25years ago. I refered to those events bcz you gave me the impression that Geagea was the best leader ever.
    when you want it was 25 years ago and when you dont its a basis for your hatred of the guy?

    I am not saying he is the neatest thing since sliced bread. I am saying he is not as bad as you are making him out to be and in comparison with what came after Bachir, he was the best.


    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    Geagea isn't the only one to be attacked. Kata2eb had already two of its figures murdered.
    I am not saying that Geagea is pro syrian. I say that he isn't the best leader. He is the less worse for the time being.
    dont mix things up.

    attacked in the political sense shi and physically/militarily is shi tene.

    1- about assasinatinosn: the danger was on everybody in M14. you cannot deny that. it so happens that LF guys came from a military background and, aside their za3rane as you call it, were street wise and knew how to take precautions.

    2- politically: I do not see any campaigns launched against the Kataeb. I will not dive into a comparison between Kataeb and Lf...its not the place not the time and I would prefer, no offense, to be debating somebody else on this...again no offense meant.

    and to be honest, I fail to see the link between the two? eno Kataeb had peopel murdered makes amine a better leader? ma fhemta?

    ok you said a statement. mind elaborating? regarding the "less worse": this means that you do acknowledge that compared to the other Christian leaders, he fares better.

    tab ok.lets build on this.

    of ALL the Christian leaders...this means that at the moment he is the best we have.true?

    ok to be the best we have, he cannot be that bad? unless you are saying that we Christians are totally good for nothing...which I am sure you would never say.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    To my knowledge Aoun was appointened bcz he was the eldest to the seat at that time. But this is not the topic.
    your knowledge is WRONG. he was not the eldest. There were 4 or 6 people above him who were older.

    aouns DOB :19 February 1935. in 1984 he was 49. surely you dont mean to say that the army was made of kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post

    I rather see it a troyan horse game played by Assad without shouting a single bullit. The good Borgian way...
    you are mixing facts...trojan horse concept was more of a machiavelli style...the borgias were into arsenic if my memory serves me right...but I am sure we will have more time to increase the scope of our pissing contest to include greek antiquity and the middle ages in Europe

    bass to go your way: the trap had a major flaw: it was under international brokerage...o a double edged flaw but remember at that time it was the best we had.


    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Same as in january 1990 when his army was able to retire and prepare its fight against LF as PSP and syrian army retired 5 km from Dowar Dhr es Shweir Kfarmatta...
    and you are implying what exactly here? mind elaborating?


    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Don't make me say again what I Didn't say I am not writing that GEagea is the worse. I never wrote that and will never write it.
    good.now we have a clear improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    I am just saying Geagea is currently the less worse choice. while for you he is the best. This is very wrong. He cannot be the best.
    are you familiar with Albert Einstein? is famous equation: E=MC2?? well the thing is he introduced a very very nice concept to the world and that is RELATIVITY. its all about relativity my friend. less worse than the worst means at least good if not best compared to the rest.

    if you are hinting at another BAchir in flesh and blood, you would be not only unrealistic but also totally lost and i might even throw in an accusation of idolation and personality cult here.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    I think you got my message now...

    looks like you got mine as well ; )

    awaiting confirmation
    -- JIBHATOUNA SOUMOUD WA RADDOUNA MOUKAWAMA --

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    Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil -Doug Patton

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    Othello, Cedrus and human:
    No personal attacks, no other forums moderators issues, no low level words.
    Keep the debate a mature one.
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    You said by your own words DEFENDING. You cannot win a war by defending. Personaly the was wasn't lost on battlefield it was lost on the political one.
    question: u r in your home and u come under attack what do you do? you defend I think, no??

    political one, then include ALL the Christian leaders in your statements. and I mean ALL of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Nope it succesfully matched as Israel waited one more year for synchronizing its offensive with the presidential election.
    if this was a trivia game i would go BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUZ wrong answer.

    1- Israel NEVER engaged Syrian troups directly.
    2- Israel did not allow itself to get dragged in a direct confrontation with Syria at ANY point in the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Dunno where you found a succes towards Geagea... (without any offense)
    ALL I listed and you dont know? again what you dont know is not necessarily not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Geagea was the direct leading officer of the offensive in the Shf. On the Iklim el 5arroub he was at the head of the LF. After the defeat he had to step down in favor of HK.
    again BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
    HK was the ra2is al hay2a al tanfizia. geagea was ra2iss arken during the short time they were together at the helm of the LF.

    this was by decision from Geagea who wanted to be able to reform the LF.

    and this was between March 85 and January 86.

    furthermore, iklim l kharoub was in december 84-january 85. this means geagea was NO WHERE NEAR the supreme command of the LF

    and the failures of the iqlim were among the reasons given by Geagea and HK to replace Fadi.

    one cant be too accurate my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    War is the continuation of politics by other means. Assad was or eliminating or turning his fierce opponents in his favor.
    Assad's didn't need battles for that he just passed form the military battlefields to the secret politics ones. Ba3assna kilna. His son is doing as same today. look in 2006 who would have bet 1 lira on Syria. Today they are strong more than ever.
    out of topic. I was not talking about war I was talking Leadership and leaders...unless you did not explain your point correctly...OR you are pulling one of them tricks lawyers pull to confuse the other party...bad boy....

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    I am judging a man that doesn't seem to understnad where is the real battlefield. It is on secret service domain.
    again there you go...changing your statement...where did you mention secret service or the world of intlligencia throughout this thread before this time?


    re read what you posted and what I had replied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    I have my info and reasons. Cannot share them now.
    de 1- if you cannot share them then why come out now?
    de 2- if its such critical information, dont you think the entire world needs to be aware of it?
    de 3- your information can not come from anywhere but the leadership of the LF and no offense, I STRONGLY doubt you have that high a clearance. any other source than the Leadership would be at best inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    PSP which are much stronger that LF were in great difficulties during May 7th offensives. We are far from that degree of preparation ... consider my point of view and tell me if I am wrong
    de 1- on what do you base yourself to say PSP were stronger than the LF?
    de 2- why are you ignoring my remark about January 23rd? do you disagree that it was a rehearsal that failed miserably against the LF and as such told M8 not to try such accrobatics on May7
    de 3- why do you guys always insist the LF should rearm? dont you find it as HYPOCRITICAL to be yearning for rearming and at the same time criticize HA for its weapons or do you agree with their right to bear arms? then lets all bear arms...form our own armies and lets see hell break loose again...

    I did consider your point(s) of view, and sorry, bass you are still wrong....

    im using plural form of point because you did shift noticeably and you proposed so many points of view, yet sadly were unable to back anyone in a concrete concise way.
    -- JIBHATOUNA SOUMOUD WA RADDOUNA MOUKAWAMA --

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    Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil -Doug Patton

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawteadmin
    Othello, Cedrus and human:
    No personal attacks, no other forums moderators issues, no low level words.
    Keep the debate a mature one.
    Thank you.
    Im trying your honor to remain within the limits of decency yet they grow thinner by the post...but I did promise a friend I would take it easy on the personal attacks and I believe I am honoring my promise

    good job by the way.
    -- JIBHATOUNA SOUMOUD WA RADDOUNA MOUKAWAMA --

    ?? ?




    Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil -Doug Patton

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    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    Bella ragazza,

    3a rasseh wou 3eineh but I cannot tolerate that Geagea is glorified like a Aoun. He made big mistakes. I said it was the pass and I was pointing at nowdays as he seems to fall in his passivity of the past.

    I begun replying by if Hizeb would attack Xians region I dought that LF could protect us. Defense objectives aren't defined. Just that. From there development were done.
    Carlitto mio,
    I cannot tolerate that Bashir is blinndly glorified without a shred of doubt from your side either.
    You find Hakim is passive just like pre 90? Fine, but why do you insist on his character assasination? Why are you so selective in stating points? Moreover, why don't you get your facts straight? Hakim was never replaced by HK like you previously said, and honestly, I did not multiquote everything because I already spent 2 hours of my life reading your posts
    btw, not everytime a battle is lost (in your opinion) you just write that Hakim was the leader....
    anw, judgement is something very subjective: I'll give you an example: The glorified Zahle battle: That was the lowest ame a leader could ever play imo: were the 200+ martyrs "noting to pay" in exchange of Israeli intervention? Is that how you wanted Hakim to operate?
    May 7, 08: ever heard of it?
    As for defeneding the Christian regions: January 23, 07.... alo?
    As far as I know, you are not astrategist, but since you are so fond of historical battles, please tell us what do you think the adopted strategy should have been? artillery and AKs on roofs?

    I will stop here as I am repeating myself......
    ما بيصح الا الصحيح
    زرعنا بلادي استشهاد... حصدنا حرية

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    Smile ????? ??? ???? ????? ? ???? ??? ???????

    Quote Originally Posted by cedrus_libani View Post
    You didn't reply You blame me for critisizing your leader Geagea. While on a nother hand you were moderator on http://www.jebha.org/http://www.soci...ic.org/kataeb/ of your friends Saddem and Elie63.

    This site is the real hatered against Geagea which I condemn. Tell the truth : were you moderator on that site or not?


    Where ever I was I never ever change, I accepted their invitation after I discussed it with another LF person I respect, and I accepte it as a mission, and to be moderator because that what they wanted me to be, despite the fact they all read my articles in ALL FORUMS AND THEY KNOW WHAT I STAND FOR; besides, I was always a truth fighter since Bachir Lebnen and MY ULTIMATE HOBBY is to write article about the LF and argue on her behalf where NO ONE GOES because oh... there is Elie63 and Saddem, or FLEN and FELTEN...

    YES, I was there and I fought for what I believed the same way as I always do and MORE because that what we learned from the Greatest LF teacher of all, and you know what else we learned?

    We learned the difference between what makes the Iltizem to the party, to the leadership, and to the brotherhood and sisterhood of the membership that distinguish an LF from all other party members, and DEMOCRACY and freedom of speech and how to use all these TOOLS----> for the benefit of making Lebnen's cause walk in front of us all the time...

    ?? ? ?? ? ? ?

    What important was I told them all how Great is Dr. Geagea and how wrong they are the same way if not more as I am doing to your majesty, here, or to anyone else anywhere on the face of earth
    Last edited by human; 26-08-2009 at 01:51 PM.
    The truth taught me to hate her; I couldn't.
    ? ? ? ?? ??

    ?? ?? ? ?
    3oun's Christians glory are:
    3oun penetrated the Christian FOR the syrians in ilgha2 war
    3oun defeated the Christians FOR the syrians in tahrrrirr war
    3oun back FOR surrendering the Christians to the syrians FOR all what he did before...

    Please dont feel sick now from keep talking about 3oun, expose him to save your face from being called naive...

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    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post


    Where ever I was I never ever change, I accepted their invitation after I discussed it with another LF person I respect, and I accepte it as a mission, and to be moderator because that what they wanted me to be, despite the fact they all read my articles in ALL FORUMS AND THEY KNOW WHAT I STAND FOR; besides, I was always a truth fighter since Bachir Lebnen and MY ULTIMATE HOBBY is to write article about the LF and argue on her behalf where NO ONE GOES because oh... there is Elie63 and Saddem, or FLEN and FELTEN...

    YES, I was there and I fought for what I believed the same way as I always do and MORE because that what we learned from the Greatest LF teacher of all, and you know what else we learned?

    We learned the difference between what makes the Iltizem to the party, to the leadership, and to the brotherhood and sisterhood of the membership that distinguish an LF from all other party members, and DEMOCRACY and freedom of speech and how to use all these TOOLS----> for the benefit of making Lebnen's cause walk in front of us all the time...

    ?? ? ?? ? ? ?

    What important was I told them all how Great is Dr. Geagea and how wrong they are the same way if not more as I am doing to your majesty, here, or to anyone else anywhere on the face of earth
    Human ; YoU're a dedicated lebanese , no one can claim otherwise , At least for me . I've always read your posts and were for me a big motive to continue while many vanished or disappeared or lost their way .
    ? ? ?? ?? ....

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