User Tag List

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: Sawte Online Book Club - The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,573
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabouk View Post
    Roro,

    I got to this part, and It wasn't funny. If he is trying to convince through sarcasm then it's not working. I mean i'm the as close as it gets to be convinced but not this way. With his style, he might convince a dumb American but no one else.
    In his preface, he went on and on and on, trying to prove that Einstein was an Atheist!
    WHO CARES!! If the guy invented the atomic bomb, it doesn't mean he can please a woman, or he knows about fashion, or know how to cook, or or or influence my decision on a theological question.
    In Chapter one, he keeps on quoting Jefferson! what the hell, who cares if your founding fathers were atheists, deists or religious!!
    I'm still waiting till i reach the part where he refutes Thomas Aquina's proofs.

    I am 3/4 through chapter one, I read the preface too; however, I can tell you so far am not liking it. He is being more of a pompous ass than a guy trying to prove anything. He is exactly the problem that I have with some atheist. He thinks he knows everything. Anyway, am gonna discuss the preface and chapter 1, point by point later on, but for now let me tell you one thing:
    Dawkins is making fun of the people that misquote Einstein and use him for their own good, well, Dawkins did worst.
    Dawkins misquoted Einstein in the worst kind of way. In all his quotation of Einstein, he got nothing that proved that Einstein was an atheist. Anyway, I will discuss it again later. But for now, here is a nice quotation from Einstein himself that makes it quite clear and with no need of any analysis that Einstein was agnostic and not an atheist,


    \"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.\"

    -- Albert Einstein

    reference: (Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216.)
    which it seems either Dawkins did not read, or chose to ignore. But if he really understood Einstein, he would have known from all the quotations that he used in the book, that he proved nothing about whether Einstein's atheism or theism!!!

    P.S. Btw Einstein was vehemently against the atomic bomb!!!
    Last edited by 2BorNOT2B; 21-05-2009 at 12:15 AM.
    Allah Yr7amak ya Gebran!!!

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by roland_ay View Post
    Do not get so excited, wait till you hit the second chapter. Very boring, all he does is quote few people and few articles and make few jokes and tell us what to expect in the upcoming chapters. I expect the chapter from 3 and on to be more exciting hopefully.

    In conclusion, I guess he has the wrong concept of Christianity and is basing his attack on this concept. For example, he made a joke about the Holy Mary when Pope John Paul 2 said that when he was shot at by that turkish assassin, it was Our Lady of Fatima (i guess) that held the bullet and saved him. And here, Dawkins makes the jokes enou waw it was Lady of Fatima because the Lady of Guadaloupe and Lady of so and so were busy in other errands. This shows his lack of common sense regarding the issue of our lady, because we do not consider them as different persons, but it is that the Holy Virgin appears each time in a different outfit and looks, and she is named after that outfit. Masalan our lady of bechwat wears different than our Lady of Medugorje.
    I don't have the book on me anymore, because I lent it to someone, and you know how that goes. But according to some website, the next paragraph says:

    How did the Greeks, the Romans and the Vikings cope with such polytheological conundrums? Was Venus jsut another name for aphrodite, or were they two distinct goddesses of love? Was Thor with his hammer a manifestation of Wotan, or a separate god? Who Cares?

    So Dawkins is indifferent and not ignorant on that subject.

    Dawkins misquoted Einstein in the worst kind of way. In all his quotation of Einstein, he got nothing that proved that Einstein was an atheist. Anyway, I will discuss it again later. But for now, here is a nice quotation from Einstein himself that makes it quite clear and with no need of any analysis that Einstein was agnostic and not an atheist,
    Dawkins has a belief scale going from 1 to 7 in his book, 7 being a super atheist. Maybe Dawkins considers Einstein to be a 5:
    Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. I dont know whether God exists but Im inclined to be sceptical.

    Atheist is a relative term:
    I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.
    - Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945, responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism; quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic, Vol. 5, No. 2
    So maybe Dawkins views him as an atheist: As I remember it, somewhere in the book (or maybe it was a different book, I can't remember) Dawkins writes that he thinks most scientists who claim that they believe in the God of Spinoza are really more atheists than agnostics, but they say such things to avoid the religious people. After all, they are way more interested in obtaining research funds than debating religion.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Beirut el Gharbieh
    Posts
    2,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sasuke View Post
    Dawkins has a belief scale going from 1 to 7 in his book, 7 being a super atheist. Maybe Dawkins considers Einstein to be a 5:
    Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. I dont know whether God exists but Im inclined to be sceptical.

    Atheist is a relative term:
    I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.
    - Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945, responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism; quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic, Vol. 5, No. 2
    So maybe Dawkins views him as an atheist: As I remember it, somewhere in the book (or maybe it was a different book, I can't remember) Dawkins writes that he thinks most scientists who claim that they believe in the God of Spinoza are really more atheists than agnostics, but they say such things to avoid the religious people. After all, they are way more interested in obtaining research funds than debating religion.
    WHO CARES
    Did we buy this book to know if Einstein was atheist or agnostic?
    One of the things Ford Prefect had always found hardest to understand about humans was their habit of continually stating and repeating the very very obvious.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    268
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabouk View Post
    WHO CARES
    Did we buy this book to know if Einstein was atheist or agnostic?
    Tabbie, yesterday i started chapter 3..... You wouldn't believe it when yu read how he refuted Aquina's arguments... Priceless piece of nonsense.
    ?? ?? ?

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Beirut el Gharbieh
    Posts
    2,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by roland_ay View Post
    Tabbie, yesterday i started chapter 3..... You wouldn't believe it when yu read how he refuted Aquina's arguments... Priceless piece of nonsense.
    Don't share until we all reach it
    One of the things Ford Prefect had always found hardest to understand about humans was their habit of continually stating and repeating the very very obvious.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,386
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    60

    Default

    Finished Chapter 1 and have started Chapter 2 which I will get done by the deadline but I am far from impressed.

    Let's hope it gets better!

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabouk View Post
    WHO CARES
    Did we buy this book to know if Einstein was atheist or agnostic?
    No, but Dawkins was simply saying that religious people misquote Einstein to claim that he was a believer. It happens to me in real life, on this website and youtube. So it's frequent enough that he should mention it.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,386
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    60

    Default

    Are we ready to move on? How many chapters do we want to set for the next week?

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,386
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    60

    Default

    Chapters 3 and 4 by 1 June - we await your feedback!

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    1,159
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    60

    Default

    So I've gotten through the first three chapters. Now I am already something of an atheist (actually my beliefs are pantheistic really) so I am not offended by Dawkins' tone or method plus of course, arguments that support my views can only be welcome, but I do see why people whose faith is strong would want to throw the book out after the first chapter - the man is not being very nice to them. His logic and reasoning skills are flawless, however, and thus very hard to ignore.

    I liked the first chapter very much as an introduction. I know people, especially people of faith, find his sarcastic and mocking attitude intolerant and I understand why but if you read his preface, I think you might be more forgiving towards his tack as he explains why he won't pu.ssyfoot around his opinions. Maybe you won't, but it made sense to me. Take for example, the parallel he drew to political parties. We seemingly have no problem attacking people for their political affiliations when we wholeheartedly disagree with them (I think we can all identify with this here!), so why should we spare religious inclinations? I tend to agree with him on this note even though I am guilty of doing just that. Although I cannot bring myself to scathingly and openly mock people's religious beliefs (perhaps because that would mean mocking people I love), I can respect why he refuses to treat religion differently to political affiliations, restaurant reviews, etc etc.

    The second chapter went on wayyyy too long. He made his point in like 5 minutes but dragged on forever citing references left and right that were unnecessary in my opinion. He should have moved on to Chapter three long ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabouk View Post
    WHO CARES
    Did we buy this book to know if Einstein was atheist or agnostic?
    Tabouk, I think you missed his point. By harping on about Einstein, Dawkins is trying to disprove arguments some people use in favour of religion by claiming that some of the greatest scientists such as Einstein were religious. By citing Einstein's actual take on religion and faith, he is trying to show the reader that such arguments are silly because in essence, Einstein was not religious (at least not in the biblical sense) at all and therefore, they cannot be used to support their cause. He makes an excellent point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2BorNOT2B View Post

    I am 3/4 through chapter one, I read the preface too; however, I can tell you so far am not liking it. He is being more of a pompous ass than a guy trying to prove anything. He is exactly the problem that I have with some atheist. He thinks he knows everything.
    Hi 2B, I know he seems a pompous punk at times, but he doesn't think he knows everything at all. Central to his argument is that we don't know everything and can only claim to know what we can prove, unlike religion which cannot do the same. He is trying aggressively to highlight this fact. I can imagine it is very hard to listen to someone who is mocking belief though, so I understand your aversion to his method...

    Anyway, am gonna discuss the preface and chapter 1, point by point later on, but for now let me tell you one thing:
    Dawkins is making fun of the people that misquote Einstein and use him for their own good, well, Dawkins did worst.
    Dawkins misquoted Einstein in the worst kind of way. In all his quotation of Einstein, he got nothing that proved that Einstein was an atheist. Anyway, I will discuss it again later. But for now, here is a nice quotation from Einstein himself that makes it quite clear and with no need of any analysis that Einstein was agnostic and not an atheist, which it seems either Dawkins did not read, or chose to ignore. But if he really understood Einstein, he would have known from all the quotations that he used in the book, that he proved nothing about whether Einstein's atheism or theism!!!

    P.S. Btw Einstein was vehemently against the atomic bomb!!!
    Whoa whoa whoa...Dawkins doesn't claim Einstein was a full blown atheist, misquoting him, just to push his agenda. What Dawkins does is not even comparable to the religious block. At least he draws on several references from Einstein himself to support his argument that the man was most closely an atheist based on the fact that he explicitly disbelieved in a personal God. He argues that Einstein cannot be used by the religious to support their own agendas because his views were, at best, pantheistic which let's be honest, in itself is like atheist light really and completely incompatible with abrahamic religions. Einstein consistently rebuked this idea that he believed in a personal God which by the way is not symptomatic of agnosticism - this is atheism par excellence by religious standards to which there is no question.
    Last edited by Orchid; 26-05-2009 at 11:11 AM.
    "Renegades are the people with their own philosophies. They change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." - Rage

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •