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Thread: Gaza Activism

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    So are there individuals like Ariel Sharon & Elie Hobeika that need to be killed here to avoid a conviction?
    OneIsManyIsOne

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    Seriously, what the hell is the matter with you people?

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl


    · Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
    · Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

    An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.
    The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.
    The manner of Iman's killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was "scared to death", made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.
    After the verdict, Iman's father, Samir al-Hams, said the army never intended to hold the soldier accountable.
    "They did not charge him with Iman's murder, only with small offences, and now they say he is innocent of those even though he shot my daughter so many times," he said. "This was the cold-blooded murder of a girl. The soldier murdered her once and the court has murdered her again. What is the message? They are telling their soldiers to kill Palestinian children."
    The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.
    Capt R's lawyers argued that the "confirmation of the kill" after a suspect is shot was a standard Israeli military practice to eliminate terrorist threats.
    Following the verdict, Capt R burst into tears, turned to the public benches and said: "I told you I was innocent."
    The army's official account said that Iman was shot for crossing into a security zone carrying her schoolbag which soldiers feared might contain a bomb. It is still not known why the girl ventured into the area but witnesses described her as at least 100 yards from the military post which was in any case well protected.
    A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.
    In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.
    Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".
    "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over," he said.
    Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.
    On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."
    At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.
    The prosecution case was damaged when a soldier who initially said he had seen Capt R point his weapon at the girl's body and open fire later told the court he had fabricated the story.
    Capt R claimed that he had not fired the shots at the girl but near her. However, Dr Mohammed al-Hams, who inspected the child's body at Rafah hospital, counted numerous wounds. "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs," he told the Guardian shortly afterwards. "The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head. One bullet was shot from the right side of the face beside the ear. It had a big impact on the whole face."
    The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.
    Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.
    The transcript
    The following is a recording of a three-way conversation that took place between a soldier in a watchtower, an army operations room and Capt R, who shot the girl
    From the watchtower [three-way conversation between watchtower soldier, the operations room in another location, and finally, Captain R, the officer on the ground near watchtower "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward." "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?" "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death." "I think that one of the positions took her out." "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."
    From the operations room "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
    Watchtower "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."
    A few minutes later, Iman is shot from one of the army posts
    Watchtower "I think that one of the positions took her out."
    Captain R "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."
    Capt R then "clarifies" why he killed Iman
    "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
    • This article was amended on 1 September 2010, to make explicit that the opening watchtower conversation is between three participants.
    OneIsManyIsOne

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOSS View Post
    Seriously, what the hell is the matter with you people?

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl


    · Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
    · Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

    An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.
    The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.
    ...
    When you are willing to load a baby carriage with explosives and then put your own baby on top of it while trying to commit suicidal terrorist act you should expect adequate reaction to any abnormality.

    That is why officer was ready to fire even at a baby and that is why court has acquitted this soldier.

    Blame only yourself.

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  5. Thanks proisrael-nonisraeli thanked for this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasuke View Post
    Really?

    Look, I tolerated 6-7 mins. after that, I'm pretty sure it's the same bull just enshrined in the listeners mind more.

    I won't waste too much time on this with you Sas, I do not think you are impartial on this subject.

    And a note to Sammy: do not bother coming in here posting endless rights to land etc. they'll go un-answered.

    Sas this Harris guy's statement here can be shot to pieces in one line: if he does not believe in real estate contract written in the Bible, then it would be impossible for him to justify the state of Israel's aggression.

    2. The beginning (first 2-3 mins I think) is kosher. But Jews and the religion are not under scrutiny here; I've always maintained and still do, the criticism is of the State Of Israel. And the funny part is, this Harris guy says it quite well in the beginning: Israel should not be a state. ... a reality orthodox Jews realize and adhere to, and find Israel a criminal state to both its neighbor's as well as Judaism itself.

    3. Harris went from: no biblical real estate, no jewish state, to "but Israelis are under aggression".

    The whole point is that they've been double crossed, cheated into losing their land, then it became outright theft of land that's well covered up when 7amiya is 7aramiya; and when it all has to do with the center of Morality (supposedly) on Earth, those three 'books'; Israeli State sets the worse example humanity can do without in this new age.

    Since u've been an atheist for a while, i'll do a quick contrast for you: this is similar to US founding fathers creating a country for the free. Putting rules to have it remain free. warning many times quoting old philosophers that a society cannot compromise it's freedom in the name of it's security. etc but, it's essentially what happened in the US. a paradox. Patriot Act for ex. goes against everything the US stands for.

    Now, is Islam a problem? Yes, it is. But I'll remind it's Muslims the problem not necessarily the Book; and Ill leave that at that.

    But it shouldn't be an excuse for us to go on the opposite side. You simply do not correct a wrong with a wrong.

    Reality is those people have a very legitimate claim, and the terrorism they are accused of is an old fashioned resistance in a world that has not developed into resisting and protesting thru gathering a million signatures of wearing camouflage to work; they have tried that. They have also tried the International Arena's laws, Israel got the US to vetoe them all.

    There's a grave injustice that took place; and the only way you can justify it in ur mind, is if you believe "these are the descendants of those who took the kingdom away in the year 700+". In which case u'd be a dinosaur, with a very serious tribal mentality problem, and have not evolved to see mankind as One.

    That being said: That Captain, in the Israeli military, who actually went to empty his magazine into a 13 year old girl who he knew was scared to death too, is a piece of scum, and pig's manure has more humanity in him than this piece of shit.

    Same goes for those who set the example yet again by not guilting him, and lowered the bar, for everyone else to go trigger happy like that.

    And shame on you if you actually believe this is kosher ya Sas, all while disguising yourself behind this hypocrite's video.
    OneIsManyIsOne

  7. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOSS View Post
    Really?
    Yes

    Sas this Harris guy's statement here can be shot to pieces in one line: if he does not believe in real estate contract written in the Bible, then it would be impossible for him to justify the state of Israel's aggression.
    But he did justify it. The Jews were always hated and sometimes persecuted all over Europe... Once enough Jews sympathized with Zionism, they started working towards making the state of Israel a reality. When you are under pressure, you don't act as you normally would. Judge all you want, but that's the way things are.

    2. The beginning (first 2-3 mins I think) is kosher. But Jews and the religion are not under scrutiny here; I've always maintained and still do, the criticism is of the State Of Israel. And the funny part is, this Harris guy says it quite well in the beginning: Israel should not be a state. ... a reality orthodox Jews realize and adhere to, and find Israel a criminal state to both its neighbor's as well as Judaism itself.
    It shouldn't be in a perfect world, but anti-semitism all over the Christian and now Muslim world justifies it. The location is the wrong one, but it's too late now.

    3. Harris went from: no biblical real estate, no jewish state, to "but Israelis are under aggression".

    The whole point is that they've been double crossed, cheated into losing their land,
    Selling your land isn't cheating. Losing several wars isn't cheating. The same promise was given by the British to two different peoples. That's the only time I will admit to the cheating part.
    then it became outright theft of land that's well covered up when 7amiya is 7aramiya; and when it all has to do with the center of Morality (supposedly) on Earth, those three 'books'; Israeli State sets the worse example humanity can do without in this new age.
    Using human shields is a worse example I can think of.

    Since u've been an atheist for a while, i'll do a quick contrast for you: this is similar to US founding fathers creating a country for the free. Putting rules to have it remain free. warning many times quoting old philosophers that a society cannot compromise it's freedom in the name of it's security. etc but, it's essentially what happened in the US. a paradox. Patriot Act for ex. goes against everything the US stands for.
    I can make your example better. It's like the founding fathers claiming the US to be a nation of free men, and then owning slaves. The thing is that it happened centuries ago, and that contradiction doesn't mean that the US should stop being a nation because of it.

    Now, is Islam a problem? Yes, it is. But I'll remind it's Muslims the problem not necessarily the Book; and Ill leave that at that.

    But it shouldn't be an excuse for us to go on the opposite side. You simply do not correct a wrong with a wrong.
    That wrong happened in the early 1900s, about 100 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, this is a problem that started when the Ottomans lost and two different promises were made. The problem didn't start in 1948, and it didn't start 2,000 years ago. That's over 3 generations ago. There is a new reality now, where a Jewish people feel that they belong there. Maybe if we were having this discussion 50 or 60 years ago, I would be on the side of those Orthodox Jews you mentioned.

    Reality is those people have a very legitimate claim, and the terrorism they are accused of is an old fashioned resistance in a world that has not developed into resisting and protesting thru gathering a million signatures of wearing camouflage to work; they have tried that. They have also tried the International Arena's laws, Israel got the US to vetoe them all.
    This claim you speak of keeps losing value. If you lose several wars, refuse to compromise as it happened in 1967, then you have to live with the consequences. The International arena is a joke. China and Russia have worse human rights records than the US, and all the Arab countries are members of that UN. Try to restrain yourself from calling me impartial the next time you mention the international arena.

    There's a grave injustice that took place; and the only way you can justify it in ur mind, is if you believe "these are the descendants of those who took the kingdom away in the year 700+". In which case u'd be a dinosaur, with a very serious tribal mentality problem, and have not evolved to see mankind as One.
    I agree. Those who justify it that way have serious mental problems. That's not the only way to justify it, at this point.

    That being said: That Captain, in the Israeli military, who actually went to empty his magazine into a 13 year old girl who he knew was scared to death too, is a piece of scum, and pig's manure has more humanity in him than this piece of shit.

    Same goes for those who set the example yet again by not guilting him, and lowered the bar, for everyone else to go trigger happy like that.
    That's fine. But if you don't want to lower the bar for him, then why don't we hear from you when Hamas members use human shields, which is a worse atrocity than anything this captain did? Remember what I always say, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
    And shame on you if you actually believe this is kosher ya Sas, all while disguising yourself behind this hypocrite's video.
    I agree with everything this hypocrite says. Can you point how Sam Harris is acting or having secret opinions that are different than what he's preaching?

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    @sasuke;

    sasuke I got home late n tired. I had written ur reply earlier when u wrote urs, but had to leave and I know u like short direct answers.

    But before anything, you have not answered the question: do you believe this is kosher? what is your position on this captain's actions here, and the ones of his military "court"?
    OneIsManyIsOne

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOSS View Post
    @sasuke;

    sasuke I got home late n tired. I had written ur reply earlier when u wrote urs, but had to leave and I know u like short direct answers.

    But before anything, you have not answered the question: do you believe this is kosher? what is your position on this captain's actions here, and the ones of his military "court"?
    The captain's actions are obviously very bad, and so is this sham of a court.

    Now it's your turn:
    Why are you posting a 10 year old article? And Do you understand that I won't criticize Israel because their standards are better than those of Hamas? Do you also understand that I am for a two states solution? And since you like big pictures, do you understand that a practical solution needs to be devised and implemented? That means there is no room for we will throw the Jews into the sea, or what was taken by force, shall be returned to us by force, or any other slogan that we've been hearing. You see for every article that you post criticizing Israel, you should post about 5 criticizing Palestine. Do you have that kind of time, or do you want to continue looking at this conflict from the point of view of the Palestinians only?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sasuke View Post
    The captain's actions are obviously very bad, and so is this sham of a court.

    Now it's your turn:
    Why are you posting a 10 year old article?
    it was in my facebook newsfeed with someone commenting as: 'obviously'. I thought it was new. Sorry guys didn't notice the date. Why is a 10 yr old story trending on facebook is a good question.

    And Do you understand that I won't criticize Israel because their standards are better than those of Hamas?
    Yes, sure. I myself dream of a rave sometime over there. But it's irrelevant. Israel's actions are ones of "developed" nations actions, and Palestinians actions are ones of severely "underdeveloped" nations actions be it at the turn of the century, or worse as they are kept now. I don't expect a 5 star resistance, but however expect a different standard from the formers.

    Do you also understand that I am for a two states solution? And since you like big pictures, do you understand that a practical solution needs to be devised and implemented? That means there is no room for we will throw the Jews into the sea, or what was taken by force, shall be returned to us by force, or any other slogan that we've been hearing.
    Yes, redo those calculations imagining it's your own house, neighborhood and kids killed and check the practicality again.. A de-facto over time thingy taking place, building illegal settlements, shipping people over to replace the ones pushed out... It's hard and I don't know how you can do it, to simply be practical. Especially, when that was the plan all along; For you to be 'practical' today. You don't feel jibbed?
    And it's not to say a 'practical solution' should be a choice or not. This is about these kind of actions, and how ur justifying them with 'human shields'. i have told u there's a bias in this on ur part. Describing ur reasoning and selling what you believe is practical, is also to say: if Palestinians still resist, is becoz they are unhappy with the solutions offered, and they should coz they are 5 times worse. And I'm telling you to use your reasoning putting yourself in their shoes by the above paragraph.

    Then compare allegations of human shields by desperate people to the cold blooded hateful murders as committed by this captain rat, and his superior's no choice given it's what he was asked to do. So, 13 year old, 3 year old, both get killed, as Captain rat eloquently put it in his statement in the article above.

    You see for every article that you post criticizing Israel, you should post about 5 criticizing Palestine. Do you have that kind of time, or do you want to continue looking at this conflict from the point of view of the Palestinians only?
    I'll post my replies to ur previous post, that'll answer this, as well as other things.
    Last edited by YOSS; 05-11-2014 at 09:10 AM. Reason: i decided to add some jibberish
    OneIsManyIsOne

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    Quote Originally Posted by sasuke View Post
    Yes
    tsu'. collaborative brainwashing.
    But he did justify it. The Jews were always hated and sometimes persecuted all over Europe... Once enough Jews sympathized with Zionism, they started working towards making the state of Israel a reality. When you are under pressure, you don't act as you normally would. Judge all you want, but that's the way things are.
    U said it, in Europe, why punish these people?

    It shouldn't be in a perfect world, but anti-semitism all over the Christian and now Muslim world justifies it. The location is the wrong one, but it's too late now.
    oh Please don't use the anti-Semite thingy. It's the most ridiculous term to use against Semites themselves. Someone's hijacking ur culture sasuke and ur blind to it. and so, not just with the 'anti-semite' mind game on you & ppl.. it went as far as outright labeling of our food as Israeli. Know why? coz everything else's been hijacked, that was left. ... akh.

    Selling your land isn't cheating. Losing several wars isn't cheating. The same promise was given by the British to two different peoples. That's the only time I will admit to the cheating part.
    The one who pushed the brits to cheat and had to rush documents thru the English parliament coz they had more access than a bunch of peasants, are the same killing today. So ur logic is flawed once more: same who cheated, is killing today.

    Using human shields is a worse example I can think of.
    1. Israeli unconfirmed claims. 2. Entirely irrelevant especially given who started it. 3. My point being: no matter what, we do not do similar things.

    Here's how it's not worse, far from it: this is in spirit of this article about Captain R. ur comparing to human shields as contrast. I'm saying, no matter what, it cannot boil down to a "Captain" and a 13 year old girl, in an empty field, him knowing she's scared to death, schoolbag proven empty of bombs etc., and decide to kill, and go confirm it even. And when in the court of "justice", charged for 'unbecoming as an officer', and he cried in tears telling everyone:"i told you i was innocent", when he won his case. ... ...

    And that example has become quite common in the state of Israel. Another example is this:



    I can make your example better. It's like the founding fathers claiming the US to be a nation of free men, and then owning slaves. The thing is that it happened centuries ago, and that contradiction doesn't mean that the US should stop being a nation because of it.
    Nope disagree. There's a philosophy to it, it's not literal. life went with the times. But the foundation's philosophy was a tandem for current life and the long term. It's a subject of it's own, but point here is: you do not kill the child when ur effort ultimately is to claim: 'we don't do this others do'; in the age old conflict. nough said.

    That wrong happened in the early 1900s, about 100 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, this is a problem that started when the Ottomans lost and two different promises were made. The problem didn't start in 1948, and it didn't start 2,000 years ago. That's over 3 generations ago. There is a new reality now, where a Jewish people feel that they belong there. Maybe if we were having this discussion 50 or 60 years ago, I would be on the side of those Orthodox Jews you mentioned.
    Answer will be in the end.

    This claim you speak of keeps losing value. If you lose several wars, refuse to compromise as it happened in 1967, then you have to live with the consequences. The International arena is a joke. China and Russia have worse human rights records than the US, and all the Arab countries are members of that UN. Try to restrain yourself from calling me impartial the next time you mention the international arena.
    Complex matter. but over 55 vetoes when everyone else in general assembly always voted almost unanimously against; that's a serious problem and injustice. maybe should not have brought this up (int'l arena); it's irrelevant to the message i'm trying to send here.

    what I can certainly do is keep the 'impartiality' in check. while you project balance, your views on this have always appeared biased.

    I agree. Those who justify it that way have serious mental problems. That's not the only way to justify it, at this point.
    Nothing justifies the ultimate "need" to murder children is what i'm saying. It's truly sad that I need to sell this so much today...

    You can't kill a child, you can only murder them. Some blame their own parents for putting them in harms way? Yes. What is this captain doing murdering this girl? telling the parents they are putting their kids in harm's way by living here. What started that way, is ending up this way. So nothing justifies it.

    That's fine. But if you don't want to lower the bar for him, then why don't we hear from you when Hamas members use human shields, which is a worse atrocity than anything this captain did? Remember what I always say, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
    naa.. not only unconfirmed but also cheap to focus on that when the huge reality is in front of you: these people simply became more desperate than any other nation throughout history. and the culprit is quite known.

    I agree with everything this hypocrite says. Can you point how Sam Harris is acting or having secret opinions that are different than what he's preaching?
    I can point to what he did not point to, but that you acknowledge (thank God ya3neh). He skipped the cheating part and the unjust part to a simpler innocent people who lived under a retarded rule, by more sophisticated and mindful people, who lived under an enlightened rule.

    My test is one of Christ's; and they failed miserably.
    Last edited by YOSS; 05-11-2014 at 02:14 PM. Reason: i decided to add some jibberish
    OneIsManyIsOne

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